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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Hall of Fame - Class of 2017

#HOF

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15 replies to this topic

#1 brian stark

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 06:07 PM

Jeff Bagwell

 

Tim Raines

 

Ivan Rodriguez



#2 brian stark

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 06:09 PM

Hoffman got 74% and Vladimir got 71% (that number surprises me, frankly).

 

Bonds and Clemens got mid 50% numbers, up some, but still a ways away.

 

Mussina over 50% and Schilling lost ground. Interesting.

 

Chipper Jones and Jim Thome eligible next year.



#3 brian stark

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 06:12 PM

One other thing...

 

In my personal opinion, Jeff Kent is WOEFULLY underappreciated. One of the best, if not THE best offensive second basemen in history.

 

Was he a red ass ::ahole::? Sure. But who cares? The guy was a fantastic offensive player. Not a great defender, granted, but not terrible.

 

When he was with the Mets, he was my favorite player, because he was one of the few on the team at that time that looked like he consistently gave a damn about winning. The roster at that time was cluttered with a LOT of crappy players just trying to put in service time. I was more than sad to see him go. Maybe I'm the only one, but I thought I was right then and think I'm right now. (surprise, surprise)



#4 Canada Mets Fan

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 06:51 PM

Very happy to see Raines get in. I've always felt he was grossly undervalued. He could do it all, and better than just about everyone else. Bagwell always put up HOF numbers, year over year. Whether he juiced or not, I can't say. I know it was proven that he took andro but in the overall picture, that might be a minor offense.

Disappointed that Vladdy didn't make it. He was a sight to behold at the plate with his ability to hit any pitch and his arm was just ridiculous.

I've never known what to think of Pudge.
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#5 Saxon

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:18 PM

I really don't get how long it took for Raines to get in...

 

just like the Rock and Roll HoF is prejudice against British Heavy Metal, the MLB HoF has a bias against speedsters...

 

from his age 21 thru his age 30 seasons (10 years), he averaged:

63 steals;

160 hits;

45 XBH's;

232 Total Bases;

77 Walks (with only 56 strikeouts);

93 runs; 

and only 11 Caught Stealing;

 

in the strike shortened 1981 season, he stole 71 bases in only 88 games...

 

while he might have been over-shadowed by Rickey and Vince Coleman, Raines had the highest stolen base success rate of any MLB player in history with significant stolen base totals...yes, the knock on him was that he might have played it a little too safe, but unlike Coleman, he didn't run his team out of innings with stupidity

 

 

http://www.baseball-...atting_standard


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#6 Drucifer

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:56 PM

 

 



#7 brian stark

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 11:11 AM

Very happy to see Raines get in. I've always felt he was grossly undervalued. He could do it all, and better than just about everyone else. Bagwell always put up HOF numbers, year over year. Whether he juiced or not, I can't say. I know it was proven that he took andro but in the overall picture, that might be a minor offense.

Disappointed that Vladdy didn't make it. He was a sight to behold at the plate with his ability to hit any pitch and his arm was just ridiculous.

I've never known what to think of Pudge.

 

To me, andro is a non-issue, because for the longest time, it was available over the counter. If it's legal, there should be no "stain" on using it.

 

Once it becomes against the rules or illegal, that changes things.

 

Which is why I am not against Bonds or even Clemens getting in. First, they were greats BEFORE any alleged use, second, there was no rule at the time barring use of any PED. There were rules against other recreational drugs like coke or marijuana, but not steroids or andro or the like. Now that there ARE rules against it and serious penalties, that's a different story.

 

Pudge was a great defensive player and decent offensive player. I'm not bothered by him getting in, I am bothered that he gets in first ballot, when he has the same amount of "suspicions" as Piazza, and Piazza was the best offensive catcher in history, hands down. Pudges edge in D does not offset Mikes edge with a bat in his hand. Mike got hosed.



#8 brian stark

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 11:12 AM

Very happy to see Raines get in. I've always felt he was grossly undervalued. He could do it all, and better than just about everyone else. Bagwell always put up HOF numbers, year over year. Whether he juiced or not, I can't say. I know it was proven that he took andro but in the overall picture, that might be a minor offense.

Disappointed that Vladdy didn't make it. He was a sight to behold at the plate with his ability to hit any pitch and his arm was just ridiculous.

I've never known what to think of Pudge.

 

To me, andro is a non-issue, because for the longest time, it was available over the counter. If it's legal, there should be no "stain" on using it.

 

Once it becomes against the rules or illegal, that changes things.

 

Which is why I am not against Bonds or even Clemens getting in. First, they were greats BEFORE any alleged use, second, there was no rule at the time barring use of any PED. There were rules against other recreational drugs like coke or marijuana, but not steroids or andro or the like. Now that there ARE rules against it and serious penalties, that's a different story.

 

Pudge was a great defensive player and decent offensive player. I'm not bothered by him getting in, I am bothered that he gets in first ballot, when he has the same amount of "suspicions" as Piazza, and Piazza was the best offensive catcher in history, hands down. Pudges edge in D does not offset Mikes edge with a bat in his hand. Mike got hosed.



#9 brian stark

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 11:12 AM

Oops, double post.



#10 brian stark

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 11:14 AM

I really don't get how long it took for Raines to get in...

 

just like the Rock and Roll HoF is prejudice against British Heavy Metal, the MLB HoF has a bias against speedsters...

 

from his age 21 thru his age 30 seasons (10 years), he averaged:

63 steals;

160 hits;

45 XBH's;

232 Total Bases;

77 Walks (with only 56 strikeouts);

93 runs; 

and only 11 Caught Stealing;

 

in the strike shortened 1981 season, he stole 71 bases in only 88 games...

 

while he might have been over-shadowed by Rickey and Vince Coleman, Raines had the highest stolen base success rate of any MLB player in history with significant stolen base totals...yes, the knock on him was that he might have played it a little too safe, but unlike Coleman, he didn't run his team out of innings with stupidity

 

 

http://www.baseball-...atting_standard

 

Raines was probably the second best leadoff hitter (behind Rickey) in baseball history. He had the misfortune of playing at the same time as the best, and that may have overshadowed him some.

 

He should have been in years ago.



#11 brian stark

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 11:19 AM

If I had time, I'd post a poll. I don't so I won't.

 

Who do you think should be in NEXT year?

 

My "ballot" would be:

 

Chipper Jones (ugh)

Jim Thome

Trevor Hoffman

Barry Bonds

Roger Clemens

Sammy Sosa

Jeff Kent

Manny Ramirez

 

I'd think long and hard on:

 

Scott Rolen

Mike Mussina

Curt Schilling

Fred McGriff

 

Oh, and Scott Podsednik should be a shoe-in.

 

Anyone else have an opinion?



#12 Saxon

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 11:33 AM

Vlad & Chipper... :fbomb: the rest

 

a lot of the other hitters either got their power numbers elevated by steroids or Corrs...

Clemens doesn't deserve it; and the other pitchers had solid but not great numbers...Hoffman might be an exception, but even he wasn't blazing dominant either



#13 brian stark

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:45 PM

Steroids mean nothing, since most were taking them, it's a level playing field.

 

And as for Coors, nobody on my list played the majority (or even a lot) of their games there, so I'm puzzled.

 

Your opinion, though, not knocking that.



#14 Saxon

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 06:31 PM

I was thinking Walker might deserve it, but then noticed how much his numbers jumped when he became a Rockie...

 

and I disagree about the steroid thing...not that I'm judging but, if a HOF plateau for HR hitters used to be 500 HRs...and then 5 guys hit 500+ HRs in the same era that started their major league career as skinny as Strawberry, but ended their career looking like an NFL Offensive lineman...then the 500/600 HR plateau no longer is a justifiable measurement...



#15 METS FANG

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 08:30 PM

The thing is how do you then compare the Chipper's and Griffy's of the world who followed the rules and didn't cheat against the Bonds and McGwires of the world who did cheat?  Pedro vs Clemens?  Does Posada on juice become a potential hall of famer?  We never know.  And how is that fair?  Do we use different measuring sticks in the same era?  Its not as easy as moving the bar because not everyone is in the same basket.

 

It used to be my talent vs your talent.  Now its my talent + steroids w/o getting caught vs your talent unaided.  

 

If you used any steroid AFTER the rule was put in place, then I put them on my ballet and keep them all out.  And its not a court of law, so its not innocent until proven guilty.  It unfortunately has to be more gray than that.  It becomes not about being caught, it about what the general consensus is.  And yes, some innocent people will get screwed.  And yes, some guilty people will get in.


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